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Poster: Face_ Date: Dec 3, 2008 2:06am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

Santtu, I read that your pages have finally been removed (http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=220300)? That's great news! I will drink a beer on you tonight because you have done something which I didn't thought was possible. You managed to make the Internet Archive *remove* something without using a robots.txt!? Woo-hoo!!

Could you please, please send me the e-mail address of Lance Grabmiller? I want to sent him the following link: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=216950. Sarah Rees Brennan is still waiting for a reply.

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Poster: jonc Date: Dec 3, 2008 8:22am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

"Could you please, please send me the e-mail address of Lance Grabmiller? I want to sent him the following link: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=216950. Sarah Rees Brennan is still waiting for a reply. "

Check the links links Sarah provided. Those have been blocked for some time.

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Poster: Face_ Date: Dec 3, 2008 9:18am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

Blimey! I didn't knew that! Thanks for telling me. Do you know who was responsible for it?

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Poster: jonc Date: Dec 3, 2008 11:00am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

No idea, but the creaky gears are in motion here, just not always noticeable :-)


This post was modified by jonc on 2008-12-03 19:00:01

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Poster: Santtu Date: Dec 3, 2008 3:15pm
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

"Santtu, I read that your pages have finally been removed I will drink a beer on you tonight because you have done something which I didn't thought was possible. "

THANK YOU!

"You managed to make the Internet Archive *remove* something without using a robots.txt!? Woo-hoo!!"

The IA can't put any robots.txt - conditions.
99,9 % of people are not aware of that possiblity.

My pages started maybe about 15 years ago, so I should have been aware of the robots.txt already when I was a beginner with internet.
Many people wants that Googles robots find their pages though they allow not the pages to be archived.

"Could you please, please send me the e-mail address of Lance Grabmiller? I want to sent him the following link: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=216950. Sarah Rees Brennan is still waiting for a reply."

Lance Grabmiller was not the person who removed my pages. It was Paul Forrest Hickman.


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Poster: Amarok63 Date: Dec 4, 2008 4:57am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

"My pages started maybe about 15 years ago, so I should have been aware of the robots.txt already when I was a beginner with internet.
Many people wants that Googles robots find their pages though they allow not the pages to be archived.
"

Well, if you apply a technology without being aware of all the possibilities, than it is your responsability if something doesn't work the way you like. As stated before, the minute you put something in the net without any kind of protection, you are inherently making possible that it's going to be used -allowed or not- by someone else. So it is YOUR fault, and noone else is to blame.

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Poster: Face_ Date: Dec 4, 2008 6:00am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

If that attack site used information readily made available by Santtu him/herself, then you could indeed say it's his/her fault. But if someone makes explicit attempts to hide details, such as his/her physical location, and someone still reveals them, then I would try to have it removed.

Now, where is that e-mail address where I can mail my deletion requests to?

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Poster: PaulForrest Date: Dec 10, 2008 9:18am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

As much as I hate to get involved in discussions on this subject (as people rarely listen and do not actually debate normally), you can always send your request to info archive org making that a normal email address. Each manual removal has to be individually researched for the validity of the claim. The Archive gets a lot of these a day and there are only one (sometimes two including me) person who works on these. It's not even the only Lance does as the Office Manager, it's just a part of the job.

I may live to regret getting involved in this discussion, but I thought that you would like to know where to send your requests. Please read through the policy. It's what we follow as much as possible. I'm not working more than one day a week, so I'm not a regular Archive employee anymore.

Paul Forrest Hickman

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Poster: Face_ Date: Dec 11, 2008 12:24am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

Hi Paul! Thank you for confirming that you can indeed send your requests to that address. I *did* send an e-mail to it after Sarah Rees Brennan's request on this forum went unanswered (http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=216950). I've never received a reply, which made me wonder if the mails to that address are actually looked at. Only later someone happened to make me aware that the webpages were already removed (http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=220348). I don't know if my mail contributed to that, but I'm nevertheless glad to hear that the address is not abandoned, and that help is not completely absent.

Cheers,
Face

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Poster: Santtu Date: Dec 4, 2008 10:30am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

"Well, if you apply a technology without being aware of all the possibilities, than it is your responsability if something doesn't work the way you like."

I don't accept your reasoning. It is senseless. With same logic I can come to your home and steal something from you. I say only that it is your own fault because you had not a note on the door: "Forbidden to steal my property." You had a possibility put that note. It is your own fault because you did not had that note, so have a permisson to steal.

"So it is YOUR fault, and noone else is to blame."

You are ridiculuos with that reasoning.


Nobody has answered anything to the fact that it is UNLEGAL to copy anybodys material without permission. This claim wins all your other reasoning, so you have lost this argue. All other claims are irrelevant.

I hope that someboy sues the Wayback machine. The sue is so big project that nobody has not done it yet .... but maybe some day. And Wayback will lose for 100% sure.

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Poster: jonc Date: Dec 4, 2008 11:43am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

Santtu, privacy and proprietorship are both very fuzzy on the Internet. It evolves around things such as social networks and self-gratification, file sharing and instant downloads, government surveillance and tracking.

If you don't restrict your site to members, you are leaving your information open for millions to see, warts and all. I often copy and paste copyrighted articles and images for my own personal use, and sometimes distribute these to friends and associates. Is this infringing? Maybe. There are ways to prevent this from being done, but it is your responsibility.

Occasionally people suggest that the Archive ask for permission before crawling websites. This would not be feasible. Contacting millions of webmasters would be a immense task, and many either don't provide contact information or don't reply to the information they provide. This task could take years, and during that time many new websites would spring up, while many others would be taken down and lost forever.

I am glad things worked out for you Santtu, but anytime you take on a new pursuit such as a website, you need to do research, and keep up to date on changes affecting your work.

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Poster: Face_ Date: Dec 4, 2008 5:18am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

"Against me was made a hatepage wich was removed by police. The photo and other material on the page was taken from my personal pages. Maybe the original hatepage is archived by Wayback - I don't know because I don't remember the original URL."

Ah! So you have enemies! That means you stand up for something. The person who created it propably thought you were worth an attack site. What a great compliment to your work! Why would you wanted it removed? ;-)

Seriously though, if the page contained very personal details, I could understand you wanted it gone from the web and from the wayback machine. But even then, someone else could have stored it, and upload it somewhere else. Or the original creator reuploads it somewhere else. If a person really wants to find out details about you, he or she *will* be able to do so, with or without wayback machine.

"Only I have the right to decide when and where my material is in publicity."

Welcome to the Internet. The kindergarten without supervisors.

You can talk about your rights whatever you like. But eventually, people will film/photograph/write whatever they want. To some extent, we can and should control this. But to a larger extent, we can not.

Cheers,
Face

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Poster: Santtu Date: Dec 4, 2008 10:54am
Forum: web Subject: Re: Wayback is like a thief

" Welcome to the Internet. The kindergarten without supervisors."

Better to say: "Goodbye from internet".
I was very naiv at the beginning. Not any more, not for years. When I started my pages people didn't have internet in homes. Only a few companys had it. The whole chracter of internet was totally different than today. My friends wondered how somebody can have own pages at internet - those who knew what internet is.


Later my pages growed quite large and they had huge amount of vistors. Most of the material was such that would really be worth saving in archives.
There were much valuable material, for example photos from areas that were countryside when I started my pages but now are full high buildings.

Also that valuable material is now gone. Maybe I publish parts of the valuable pages again....

I have still some webpages, but they are anonymous and in diffrent places. For exmaple subject X pages are at one service provider and subject Y pages at another service provider.